Curse

Snow Bunny · Jan 28, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Izzy just needs to realize that sometimes you need to settle with the lesser of two evils. In this case that is LoD.

QFT

Bring it back

Lorekeeper · Jan 28, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

bringing back LoD would be one of several necessary balance changes... it alone will fix nothing.

Burton2000 · Jan 28, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

They just updated it.

I'd like to know when they updated that as I cant remember ever reading on update notes that it was changed.

Div · Jan 28, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Also, is the Guild Lord's movement no longer tied to that of the opponent? In a recent game we aggroed the opposing Lord, only to find ours rampaging towards the stand and the army that stood there...

The GL's movement has always been tied to that of the opponent, but there are certain checkpoints where they'll wait at. Once both your lord and their lord pass the last checkpoint, your lord will run towards the center even if the other one gets aggroed.

Burton2000 · Jan 28, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought as much. Must of just missed the final checkpoint then as it was on nomads on the entrance to the enemies base where we had him agroed.

Keithark · Jan 28, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

If lod would be buffed right now i'd still run a partygon and WoH. The former is a ridiculously overpowered template, the latter a ridiculously overpowered skill.

But yes, it would allow for more variation if you really wanted to.

Because paragons are boring linear one dimensional game deteriorating characters. Sure this new incarnation actually requires you to do stuff but after a few days playing it's already automized buttonsmash.

Next to the fact that a spear deals more damage than a sword or axe while being a ranged weapon.

Roll a Paragon, unlock all skills if you haven't already and play a build without DA in it. There are many builds that are "mash button on recharge" type builds but the more effective ones are active require targeting party members, keeping within shout range, etc. I agree that being an "OK" Paragon is easier than being a "OK" anything else...but if you really play it to it fullest potential it is just as demanding as any class. (BTW I do not claim to be a great Paragon by any stretch, but I have seen some and it is anything but mindless button mashing as so many who have only played the common (spear attack, spear attack, DA, anthem flame, gfte, rez, watch yourself or shields up, utility) would like you to believe

Vaga · Jan 28, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Roll a Paragon, unlock all skills if you haven't already and play a build without DA in it. There are many builds that are "mash button on recharge" type builds but the more effective ones are active require targeting party members, keeping within shout range, etc. I agree that being an "OK" Paragon is easier than being a "OK" anything else...but if you really play it to it fullest potential it is just as demanding as any class. (BTW I do not claim to be a great Paragon by any stretch, but I have seen some and it is anything but mindless button mashing as so many who have only played the common (spear attack, spear attack, DA, anthem flame, gfte, rez, watch yourself or shields up, utility) would like you to believe

No one runs DA genius, and yeah if a skillful template was viable people wouldn't complain so much about them.

Also there would probably be a better alternative to bringing LoD back but the fact is it's the "easiest" solution and ANet are least likely to completely break the game by bringing it back.

JR · Jan 28, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

bringing back LoD would be one of several necessary balance changes... it alone will fix nothing.

...but would require first seeing the impact of bringing back LoD before you made any further changes.

Keithark · Jan 28, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

No one runs DA genius, and yeah if a skillful template was viable people wouldn't complain so much about them.

Also there would probably be a better alternative to bringing LoD back but the fact is it's the "easiest" solution and ANet are least likely to completely break the game by bringing it back.

Humm...guess the Observer matches I see are different than the ones you see. DA doesn't see the play it did 3 months ago but still one of the more used elite on gon per last weeks observer. Not that that was the point....

Vaga · Jan 28, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Humm...guess the Observer matches I see are different than the ones you see. DA doesn't see the play it did 3 months ago but still one of the more used elite on gon per last weeks observer. Not that that was the point....

At least 90% of paragons run song of resto, so telling people to stop running DA is dumb. You had no point really because you didn't provide anyone with a viable skillful para build that you claim there is.

Lorekeeper · Jan 29, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

...but would require first seeing the impact of bringing back LoD before you made any further changes.

i expect the following results of bringing LoD back into the meta.

1) due to the insane dmg at VoD people continue to run the motigon midliners, they switch out a warrior for a dervish, and continue to rely on splinter farming NPCs at VoD... only this time they have far better tools to cope with the insane damage. Teams are able to stall even better because of LoD and able to tank VoD better with dervishes being a favoured tool to farm balled NPCs.

2) Teams that do not need to rely on a motigon and a LoD monk will just switch back to a cruel spear paragon with pspike or mirror or both (teams with godly monk backlines). The added healing from LoD on opposing teams will be cancelled out in part by the return of the high dps cruel spear paragon... and teams will still be highly vulnerable to disruption on aegis and ward of melee.
Problem with running this build is that too much anti-pressure defense rests upon the LoD monk's bar... with the 2nd aegis and the teams only party heal. The problem with the LoD meta was the reliance on LoD as the single point of failure... both for teams to score kills aswell as for teams to stay alive. Only without the motigon paragon midliner teams will have little defense to fall back onto if their LoD monk was being heavily disrupted or killed.

3) Will people replace the paragon entirely? The strength of the 1st option listed above is that teams have a great deal of staying power. The strength of the 2nd option above is that it packs a great deal of offensive pressure that might allow better teams to crack a motigon+LoD balanced build. However it would be highly vulnerable to a good team running the motigon+LoD balanced version because it relies so heavily on the LoD monk. Perhaps teams will move towards a template to replace the paragon that packs a better combination of offense and defense (is it possible?) since the motigon sacrifices much of its offense (compared to the cruel spear variant) for its party wide heal support. Maybe 2 caster midlines will see a comeback? Water ele + mesmer or air ele + mesmer?

4) Or maybe the paragon build will see yet another shift... perhaps to bring back the old DA/shields up/WY in combination with spear of lightning and vicious attack. Packing good passive defense and offense. OR Maybe teams will settle for a +3 mending refrain instead of +4 and run cruel spear with higher spear mastery instead of speccing so many points into motivation.

5) maybe in light of sineptitude even a meta with LoD could shift towards split heavy builds. Maybe more people will run sineptitude. More people will have to build towards the split game rather than the stand game... or maybe people will spec heavily towards the stand game and just turtle until VoD? In which case options 1) would be the best.

In my humble opinion i would expect options 1) and 4) to appear the most.

In which case... will bringing back LoD really change things that much?

Kaon · Jan 29, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

With just lod back i'd stay with WoH and partygon. The partygon gives an amazing amount of partyhealing and damage, you don't need lod as a compliment. Next to that WoH is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing overpowered and MUCH harder to shut down than lod.

It would give people an easier option splitting, but still every split would be inferior to sinsplit.

Bringing back lod would be fine, but they HAVE to nerf partygons if they want to do any effect. Besides, there are no bad sides on nerfing a partygon anyway so there's no point not to do it.

Cirian · Jan 29, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Bringing LoD back and making it the single point of failure again seems like a step backwards.

Why do people feel forced to take a Paragon primary for Song of Restoration?

deya · Jan 29, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Bringing LoD back and making it the single point of failure again seems like a step backwards.

Why do people feel forced to take a Paragon primary for Song of Restoration?

Would you switch eviscerate to Song of Restoration?
I think I don't need to mention rest of the classes in that list.

wuzzman · Jan 29, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i expect the following results of bringing LoD back into the meta.

1) due to the insane dmg at VoD people continue to run the motigon midliners, they switch out a warrior for a dervish, and continue to rely on splinter farming NPCs at VoD... only this time they have far better tools to cope with the insane damage. Teams are able to stall even better because of LoD and able to tank VoD better with dervishes being a favoured tool to farm balled NPCs.

2) Teams that do not need to rely on a motigon and a LoD monk will just switch back to a cruel spear paragon with pspike or mirror or both (teams with godly monk backlines). The added healing from LoD on opposing teams will be cancelled out in part by the return of the high dps cruel spear paragon... and teams will still be highly vulnerable to disruption on aegis and ward of melee.
Problem with running this build is that too much anti-pressure defense rests upon the LoD monk's bar... with the 2nd aegis and the teams only party heal. The problem with the LoD meta was the reliance on LoD as the single point of failure... both for teams to score kills aswell as for teams to stay alive. Only without the motigon paragon midliner teams will have little defense to fall back onto if their LoD monk was being heavily disrupted or killed.

3) Will people replace the paragon entirely? The strength of the 1st option listed above is that teams have a great deal of staying power. The strength of the 2nd option above is that it packs a great deal of offensive pressure that might allow better teams to crack a motigon+LoD balanced build. However it would be highly vulnerable to a good team running the motigon+LoD balanced version because it relies so heavily on the LoD monk. Perhaps teams will move towards a template to replace the paragon that packs a better combination of offense and defense (is it possible?) since the motigon sacrifices much of its offense (compared to the cruel spear variant) for its party wide heal support. Maybe 2 caster midlines will see a comeback? Water ele + mesmer or air ele + mesmer?

4) Or maybe the paragon build will see yet another shift... perhaps to bring back the old DA/shields up/WY in combination with spear of lightning and vicious attack. Packing good passive defense and offense. OR Maybe teams will settle for a +3 mending refrain instead of +4 and run cruel spear with higher spear mastery instead of speccing so many points into motivation.

5) maybe in light of sineptitude even a meta with LoD could shift towards split heavy builds. Maybe more people will run sineptitude. More people will have to build towards the split game rather than the stand game... or maybe people will spec heavily towards the stand game and just turtle until VoD? In which case options 1) would be the best.

In my humble opinion i would expect options 1) and 4) to appear the most.

In which case... will bringing back LoD really change things that much?

1. and 2. is likely to happen. I don't see players not running LoD, and I don't see LoD changing much of anything, except those that don't use the motigon for midline will get creamed a lot easier then if they didn't. 3. is not likely, because other midline options besides cruel spear, are sad in comparison to the motigon or the cruel spear. I really have the feeling that 3 maybe 4 warrior teams will show up if paras are knocked out the game.

Jaen · Jan 29, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Roll a Paragon, unlock all skills if you haven't already and play a build without DA in it. There are many builds that are "mash button on recharge" type builds but the more effective ones are active require targeting party members, keeping within shout range, etc. I agree that being an "OK" Paragon is easier than being a "OK" anything else...but if you really play it to it fullest potential it is just as demanding as any class. (BTW I do not claim to be a great Paragon by any stretch, but I have seen some and it is anything but mindless button mashing as so many who have only played the common (spear attack, spear attack, DA, anthem flame, gfte, rez, watch yourself or shields up, utility) would like you to believe

Just because there are people so bad at the game that they need "skill" to play a paragon does not make the Paragon require any skill to play.

Btw Kaon is a drama queen, but if you watched OBS at all you would know he was in vZ, and those nubs were rank two on the ladder for a while.

Bonus points for knowing what position he plays now in what guild... *cough*

wuzzman · Jan 30, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

its not overpowered, other templates suck...

pah01 · Jan 30, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

its not overpowered, other templates suck...

Thats another way of looking at it but I am not sure whether or not I agree with the first part of your statement. You are however correct - other templates do indeed suck.

JR · Jan 31, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Yes! I plan to put SoR on the frontline warriors!

... no.

Ok, I will do some of the work for you. SoR is a midliner skill and the two classes that have fairly open options are Rt and Me, with Rt being the most able to invest in Motivation. I'm not sure what a Dom mesmer would be like with SoR, probably terrible. The Splinter/Rage guy on the other hand you can turn into a stand character with SoR quite easily, and your flagger would most likely be an ele.

A Rit without Remedy loses the abiltiy to split. That said, combining the two gayest characters in the world into one does have it's appeal.

erk · Feb 01, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Yes! I plan to put SoR on the frontline warriors!

... no.

Ok, I will do some of the work for you. SoR is a midliner skill and the two classes that have fairly open options are Rt and Me, with Rt being the most able to invest in Motivation. I'm not sure what a Dom mesmer would be like with SoR, probably terrible. The Splinter/Rage guy on the other hand you can turn into a stand character with SoR quite easily, and your flagger would most likely be an ele.

Why would you ever bother putting a crappy conditional party heal like Song of Restoration, which only works on players within earshot, on a Rit?

Protective Was Kaolai has far better range, does not blow the Elite skill slot or require a skill to be used by the target, and with 14 in Restoration out heals Song of Restoration as you could only put 12 Motivation points into on a Rit. Say you are running across the lava on Burning, SoR is a hassle because you are running not activating a skill, PWK will help top up the bars effortlessly, and the Rit can be either side of the lava patch and still be in range.

BTW. Life or Recuperation spirits have a very good range, way more than enough for the Rit to be clear of pesky Rangers and Mesmers when casting them.